Bat Ye’or, World’s Leading Historian on Islam, Eurabia and Islamic Anti-Semitism, Sits Down with Pamela Geller: Emergence of Western Islam

As promised — here is the
whole interview (under an hour with Bat Ye'or). Listen, learn everything. Especially
now with the world galloping toward Islam. Anyone who might transcribe — I would be grateful. It is historic. (UPDATE: The transcript by Atlas Shruggers Diane and Don is now below the fold.)

I had the extraordinary pleasure of spending most of the day with Bat
Ye'or, who has written five books and scores of articles on non-Muslims
Islam, adopting a biblical pen name since 1974: (bio)

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Ye’or’ / ‘Daughter
of the Nile’. Her first essay, Les Juifs en Egypte (1971) was
followed by a major study, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under
(French/1980; English/1985; Hebrew/ 1986; Russian/1992). This
remains an essential introduction to her second major work, The
Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam. From Jihad to Dhimmitude

(French/1991; English/1996; German/2002) which put the study of this
topic on a new footing and confirmed her reputation as a pioneer thinker
in this field. After 9/11, Islam and Dhimmitude. Where
Civilizations Collide
(2002) examined the trend toward dhimmitude
in the 20th century, thereby facilitating a serious assessment of the
traditional Islamic ‘Ideology of Jihad’. Her latest book, EURABIA:
The Euro-Arab Axis
(2005; and French, Italian, Dutch, Hebrew,
2006-08) facilitated an understanding of the gradual transformation of
Europe into “Eurabia”, a cultural and political appendage of the
Arab/Muslim world. Sir Martin Gilbert wrote about this work: “With
all the drama of a master writer, Bat Ye’or
[tells] the story
of how the European Union is being subverted by Islamic hostility to the
very ethics and values of Europe itself.
” And renowned historian
Niall Ferguson declared that: “No writer has done more than Bat
Ye’or to draw attention to the menacing character of Islamic extremism
Future historians will one day regard her coinage of the term
‘Eurabia’ as prophetic. Those who wish to live in a free society must be
eternally vigilant. Bat Ye’or’s vigilance is unrivalled.

Ye’or’s latest book was published in Italy:
Verso il Califfato
Come l’Europa è diventata complice dell’espansionismo musulmano,
Torino: May 2009.
Toward the Universal Caliphate: How Europe Became an
Accomplice of
Muslim Expansionism.)

If you missed Bat Ye'or's statement on the 911 mega mosque at Ground Zero, go here.

Huge thanks to the intrepid extensive interview with Bat Ye'or back in 2007, go here for video and transcript.

OT related: The
Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War on America

Here's the transcript (much thanks to Diane and Don):

Geller: Good
afternoon, we are here with Bat Ye’or, world scholar on Islam in the West, and
historian. We were here together
where I called to the Pope—she’s my Pope, anyway—back in 2007 where we
discussed Islam in the West. Today
I’d like to talk about something else that you’ve been working on. The book that’s in Italian, and it’s
coming out in English, Toward the Universal Caliphate. I think that the Ambassador John Bolton is writing
the forward.

Bat Ye’or: Yes,
he promised to, and I am very grateful to him.

Geller: And
what we’d like to talk about today is how the left, how the West, is enabling
the encroaching, or should I say the galloping, Islamization of the West. Okay, the first question I have for you is, How are Western
authorities advancing the Islamization of the West, the encroaching Sharia?

Bat Ye’or: I
can only speak about Europe. Because in America the situation is quite different. But in Europe it has been since 1970’s
when there was a strong problem of Palestinian terrorism. There have been arrangements, dialogue,
engagement between the European government and countries of the Middle
East. So this type of dialogue and
complacent relationships, where the European countries accepted the requests of
the Arab League countries, has spread in Europe. Lots of Muslim cultural centers, and also has encouraged
Muslim immigration, which is of course promoting and bringing the development
of mosques.  Because you cannot
have a repopulation without that mosque—if you have, you are going to have an
important immigrant population, you have to give them their religious rights. And this means also the Arabic lessons, Arab institutions, and so on and so
on. And so we could have seen
since the seventies until now a progression of an Islamization and Arabization
of the West, without the European populations being aware of it. And especially that these arrangements
were organized at the level of the cultural centers, the universities, the
media, and so on, dialogues between Western or European university and Arab
world, all those arrangements have been done without the knowledge of the

So, one of the aspects, therefore, of the Islamization of
Europe is immigration, of course.
Demographic immigration, which brings Islamic culture. The other element is multiculturalism. The European governments have promoted
multiculturalism without having this important problem discussed with the
European population. And another element, another important factor, is
globalization. Globalization means
that sovereign countries lose their own sovereignty on many aspects and accept
global government, which comes from the EU, the United Nations. From the United
Nations. So this we see for instance that the United Nations regulations are
more and more imposing themselves and ruling the countries, the Western
countries, Western European countries. And I found this a danger because the OIC, the Organization of the
Islamic Conference, is having always an increasing influence on the United
Nations and on the United Nations holdings. And, therefore, I think that it is a danger for democracy
because the European people are losing the control they have on their own
politics. Because they cannot
control, they cannot decide what is going on in the United Nations. And their
own democratic institutions are weakened by the development of the United
Nations domination and rules. So
the populations don’t know what is happening. They have lost the control of their own policy, and their
own future. Within the movement of globalization. 

Geller: Yes.
Now I did a series of articles on the EuroMed partnership. Now isn’t the EuroMed partnership a
continuation of this policy, where basically you’re opening up the floodgates
to Africa, freedom of movement? I don’t expect Europeans will be going there, I
expect that the Africans will be coming into Europe, without paperwork. I mean,
it’s opening up the floodgates to immigration.

Bat Ye’or: Yes,
of course. This was the first beginning of the globalization, if you want, process.
It was restricted to the Mediterranean region. It was Europe and the Arab
Mediterranean countries.

Geller: Right.

Bat Ye’or: So this has created a syncretic hybridization of
the Judeo-Christian culture and Islamic culture. We see more and more of that
in Europe. A kind of hybridization, Islamic hybridization of the Western
culture. So much so that the European Union renounced what is the pillar of its
identity. It is the Judeo-Christian identity, and it refused to recognize it in
order to accommodate Muslim immigration, Muslim immigrants.

So you can say that there is in fact this Mediterranean
society where there is a symbiosis, but the symbiosis is more in the
Islamization of Europe than in the Westernization of the Islamic countries.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: Because we see that the OIC, the Organization of
the Islamic Conference, is now working in order to root the Islamic world in
the values and the tradition of the Koran, and the Sunnah. So as to make it
even more Islamic. It is not going towards us, towards Westernization. But the
new development of the future of the Islamic world will be toward more Islam
and more radicalization, while the OIC requests from the Western countries and
Europe that it becomes multicultural. 

So, in fact it is asking from us what they refuse to do in
the Islamic countries. 

Geller:  And
America joining the Alliance of Civilizations, which to my understanding is
something of a proxy to the Organization of the Islamic Conference—I saw it as
very disturbing news.  I was wondering
if you could give us your take on America joining the Alliance of

Bat Ye’or: Yes, well the Alliance of Civilizations is a very
huge organization, which is, as you say, proxy of the OIC. Its main concern as
it’s stated in its report written in 2006 is to bring together the Western
World with Islam. This is one of its main focus.  So—how to do it? Well, it promotes the projects of the OIC.
We know what the OIC is requesting from the Western world and its Alliance of
Civilization. It’s the mouth of the OIC. 

Now, on the other hand, of course, it is important that
especially in the age of nuclear weapons that we avoid wars and conflicts.
Because they will be very dangerous. However, we have to recognize that we are
now engaged into the conflict, which is a jihadist conflict. And the West must
get out of its culture of denial and lies, and acknowledge that terrorism is in
fact a war, a type of war. And it has to ask the OIC, the Organization of the
Islamic Conference, which is an umbrella organization for the 56 Muslim
countries, and which wielded enormous power, so it has to demand and request
from this organization that it has to make also some steps in the direction of
the West. It is not only the West that has to renounce many of its principles
and its own identity in order to meet Islam, but it has to be a cross-direction
process, that both must go toward the one another. Otherwise, if only the West
is doing all the efforts, the West will be gone — already a dhimmi continent,
a dhimmi society and dhimmi culture. 

Geller: And just for people who are not familiar with the
term dhimmi, you are the leading expert on it, you coined the term
dhimmitude—and Eurabia, too, that’s yours. Just for the people, explain
dhimmitude, explain the dhimmi, just so they understand what it means.

Bat Ye’or: Well, dhimmitude is the civilization that was
developed by the non-Muslim populations where conquered by jihad. Because jihad
is not just any war, jihad has an ideology, and it has its ruling, its jurisdiction.
And this jurisdiction imposes on those populations a total subjection to the
Islamic rulers, and also imposes some rules to which the non-Muslims must abide
and must apply. And among those rules it is the fact, the prohibition to
criticize Islam. So if you cannot criticize only one religion, this is
absolutely contrary to our principles in the West, because everything can be

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: And especially that Islam is together a religion,
a law and the politics. So if you cannot criticize the politics of Islam, and
Islam wants to Islamize you, so this means that you are neutralized. You cannot
defend yourself. 

Geller: Neutered.

Bat Ye’or: Exactly. And so, this is in fact a tendency that
we can see in the OIC, with the policy of denouncing so much Islamophobia in
the West. The policy of accusation of Islamophobia is, in a way, also a means
to neutralize—a political means to neutralize our defense. And we have to be
aware of that.

Geller: Yes. And people are not aware of it, and the media
is aligned with the terror force, because it’s part of the obfuscation—it’s
very confusing to people.

Bat Ye’or: Yes. It is very confusing, because first of all,
the Western world, and I’ll also say many Muslims, do not know the Muslim
Sharia, the Muslim jurisdiction. They don’t understand that, these rules. They
don’t understand what is the blasphemy law, for instance. What are the Sharia
laws. They don’t understand. So, for them, this is something they cannot fight
against, because they don’t understand what it is. But also many Muslims don’t
know that, and for them they can consider that the reaction of the West to the
adoption of certain Muslim customs can be Islamophobic.  Because they don’t know the background
of this history. They don’t know the history of jihad, for instance. 

So, because the Islamic view of history, the Islamic
interpretation of history is only according to Sharia — and this means that
Islamic history is perfect. And there was nothing wrong—jihad has nothing
wrong. This is why we cannot criticize jihad. Because everything is perfect. So
we have a conflict, an argument, even on words. What is jihad. What is
terrorism. We cannot even criticize jihad, for instance. We also cannot
criticize Islamic justice. We have to say, we have to know that Islamic justice
is the justice according to Sharia. But we cannot abide by this interpretation
of justice, because it means–Sharia promotes the cutting of the hands, also
crucifixion in case of apostasy, and many other aspects. And so this is not
justice for us. We have another definition of justice. Justice is equality of
men and women, it is equality of all human beings, it is based on the Ten
Commandments, it is based on The Enlightenment, it is based on a lot of other
principles which are not based on Sharia. So when we speak about justice, even
this word has different meaning. When we speak of peace, it has different
meaning. Peace in Islam is peace according to Sharia.  Peace for us is contrary to what this means in the

Geller: Now, you saw that the counterterrorism advisor to
President Obama said that jihad was a legitimate tenet of Islam. Isn’t this
very dangerous? Isn’t this more obfuscation? 

Bat Ye’or: Yes, of course. Because this is according with
the Islamic vision of its own history. Jihad—because it is a war to expand the
religion of Islam in the world—is a just, a perfect and just activity. Because
it is done according to the Koran’s request and command. So it cannot be wrong,
because everything which is Koranic is perfect, because it comes straight from
Allah. You cannot criticize. So jihad is according to Muhammad’s activities and

So if us, the Western world, which has been for 13 centuries
the victims of jihad, which is a very dangerous and violent war, and we cannot
criticize this war—and we say it is perfect, it is good—so then it is

Geller: Yes. Now what do you think of the political
significance of the Islamic delegitimization of Judaism and Christianity?

Bat Ye’or: Well, I think that this of course this goes with
the Islamic belief that considers that Jews and Christians have falsified the
only religion, which is Islam. And which considers that the Hebrew history and
the Hebrew prophets were Muslim prophets, including Jesus. That Jesus was a
Muslim prophet.

Geller: Yeah, they ran that on the bus ads. 

Bat Ye’or: Yes. So in this case, if the Bible is the history
of Muslims before the appearance of Muhammad, if we have falsified in our
Bible, First and Second Testaments, the real message of Islam that was preached
by the Hebrew prophets and by Jesus, then we have falsified the real religion.
And therefore, our historical conception on Israel and Christianity are all
false. Because the Biblical story is not a Jewish history, it is a Muslim
history according to the Islamic view. So this is why Israel has no legitimate
right in its own country. So we see here that Christians cannot, if they are
Christians, they cannot accept that Israel has no legitimate national roots in
the land of the Bible. Because the Christians have accepted the First
Testament. It is part of them—their own religious identity.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: So, if they renounce that, and if they accept
that Jesus was a Muslim prophet who preached Islam, they renounce therefore
Jesus, the Hebrew Jesus, the Jewish Jesus. They renounce, in fact, their whole
Christianity. So we have here a very important religious conflict which we
haven’t yet discussed with the Muslim world. And until they recognize the
legitimacy of our own religious history and identity, and they renounce to
Islamize our history and usurp our history, I don’t see how we can get
together. We cannot have an agreement. 

Another problem is that the Muslims say that all children
are born Muslims. Therefore, they see us as apostates. And because we are born
Muslim, you see, in principle.

Geller: I understand.

Bat Ye’or: So there are all those aspects that usually the
Western public do not acknowledge, do not know. So that this conflict, which is
very complicated because it has theological, political, legal aspects,
historical aspects, is not understood.   

Geller: But how are you going to get them to recognize the
legitimacy of Judiasm and Christianity, when their whole religion is based on
falsifying it? It’s like when I discuss expunging the Koran of its violent
texts. The problem I see—and you are the world’s leading historian on Islamic
anti-Semitism—it’s very much a part of the doctrine, is it not? Can you discuss
Islamic anti-Semitism with us for just a bit?

Bat Ye’or: Yes, well it starts with the problem of Muhammad,
because the prophet Muhammad wanted to Islamize the Jews. He believed he was
bringing a message in conformity with their Judaism. And he thought the same
with Christianity, that they would be accepted by the Christians, too. But then
in Medina, there was a big Jewish community, and they, of course, they didn’t
accept his –

Geller: Ideas.

Bat Ye’or: His ideas. Because also he didn’t know much about
the Bible. And therefore, there was a conflict, and Muhammad got rid of the
Jews there. It is well known. One of the tribes, he expelled them. Another
tribe he expelled and took all their belongings.  And the third one was massacred –

Geller: Qurayzah.

Bat Ye’or: The Qurayzah. And also the children and women
were taken in slavery. But then he continued his war against the Jews who lived
in the other oasis in Arabia. And then there was a continual conflict, because
Muhammad thought that he was bringing the real Bible, that the Koran was the
real Bible. You see? And therefore, we still have this conflict now. This is
why the Muslim says that our Bible is a falsified version of the Koran of
Islam. You see—so, there is in his conflict with the Jews in Arabia, and in his
war against the Jews, of course he developed verses—verses were revealed—which
direct him to wage war against the Jews. Anti-Semitism or Judeophobia, in this
case Judeophobia, developed very strongly from the war of Muhammad against the
Jews. And then it was taken through the biography of the prophet, which were
published two centuries later, and in the hadith, which are the sacred
scriptures of Islam. And it was there given an institutional and legal form,
the status of the Jews and Christians. And therefore, these, since they are
considered sacred — so we have a whole body of sacred Islamic rulings which
are extremely Judeophobic, and also anti-Christian, because often what was said
to the Jews was said about the Christians. And the Christians are also
considered even worse than the Jews. And these people don’t know it. Because
they are called as idolaters –

Geller: Idolaters. Yes.

Bat Ye’or: Yes, or associationists. This is the people who
associate other gods to one G-d. So, in fact—and also because of the war that
developed later with the Christians, against the Christians, so the history,
Islamic history, and legal institutions and rulings have a whole body of
anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, also anti-pagan—important, how you say, baggage.

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: And this absolutely, if we want a peaceful
civilization, this must be examined.

Geller: Now, how would you say that the U.S. now, along with
the E.U., is advancing Islam in the West?

Bat Ye’or: Well, because this is rooted in the ideology of
refusing war. The E. U. was built on the refusal of any war in the nuclear age.
So it has adopted an accommodating engagement policy with the Muslim world, in
order to avoid conflicts.  But
also, there are also other reasons which are based on economic need, since the
Islamic world has an enormous reserve of energy.

Geller: Right.

Bat Ye’or: So economic reasons and the desire to have good
relations with the Muslim world, and the renouncement of one’s own identity —
which is very strongly developed in Europe, and not in America, but this maybe
will come. Because in Europe we had a very strong Nazi-leftist-Communist
tendency which was anti-European and anti-religious. So because of this
historical baggage, Europe wanted—didn’t mind to renounce its own identity,
especially if it was a Judeo-Christian identity, which it rejected. And it went
into the agreement with the Islamic world. Now we see with this Obama
administration, the leftist administration, the Democratic one, we see the same
vision. It is an ideology. It is the desire to create a world, a peaceful world
where there won’t be any boundary, religious boundary, national boundaries.
Everyone will be together. The brother and sister. But I think that Hell is
paved with good intentions, and that this is not a very realistic situation,
vision. We have to see that we have enemies. And we have to know why they are
our enemies. And we have to deal with enemies. If we want peace, we have to
deal with enemies. We cannot pretend that we have no enemies. 

Geller: So what should the Western governments, what should
the U.S., what should Europe be doing?

Bat Ye’or: Well, I think — I speak now about Europe — I
think what we see in Europe is a development of a conscious[ness] of all those

Geller: They’re becoming aware of it.

Bat Ye’or: Yes. The grassroots. The people.

Geller: Yeah, the people. We love them.

Bat Ye’or: Like, for instance, those who support Geert

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: And the others like that, also. So people are
bringing pressure on their governments to force them to listen to them.
Because, after all, those governments are elected in order to take care of and
protect the wishes of their citizens.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: Not to make dealings with Arab countries and to
arrange for a huge Muslim immigration. So they are now forcing the governors to
take their responsibilities. And if they are incompetent — because the leaders
of the governments are there to serve—and this is very strongly developed in
America—they’re there to serve the people.

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: Not to serve their pockets. Or their own
ambition. So there is much more demand now, which are done on their leaders.
And so they have to listen to their own people. Now, how to do it. As to the
European people, this is also very much now discussed. We have to know what is
our identity. It is based on what? What are the pillars of our identity? And we
have to know what are the principles on which we will not discuss, will not
abandon the principles—the democratic principle, the principles of our
democratic freedom, of our rights. We have to know on what are they based, and
what we are ready to fight for. And I think that all this is being discussed

Geller: Now.

Bat Ye’or: And everywhere in Europe. In different places.

Geller: But when you have the signing of the Lisbon
Treaty—the last country which didn’t want to do it, Czechoslovakia. But when
Ireland fell, which was surprising because they had just voted the prior June
against it, doesn’t that somewhat vanquish national sovereignty?

Bat Ye’or: Of course. But this has even woken up more the
European people.

Geller:  The
Lisbon Treaty?

Bat Ye’or: The Lisbon Treaty. Because they realized how
their leaders are doing policy behind their backs and without the approval of
their own citizens. So there are many people who reject the Lisbon treaty. Many
people who reject the EU— the European Union. They want of course the
unification, the integration of the different countries of Europe has many
positive aspects, very great things. But there are discussions about what is
the EU. Is it a supranational body that has confiscated the national
sovereignty of the people?

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: And which is engaging into globalization in a big
way, and in a way that the citizen cannot control? They lose the control of
their own future and their own society. So all those elements are being
discussed now. And all this with a huge Muslim population in Europe, which is
linked with the OIC.

Geller: Right.

Bat Ye’or: Which is acting in a contrary way to what the
citizens want. So the situation is becoming very conflictual in Europe. Now you
don’t have in America this situation because you are one country. You speak one

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: It is different. 

Geller: No, we’re experiencing something different. I mean,
my book is coming out in July, The Post-American Presidency, the Obama
Administration’s War on America,
and really
a basic tenet of the book is how Obama is abandoning American sovereignty,
relinquishing it to international law. We are seeing that increasingly, which
we find very very troubling. And he seems to not give a whit about the Tea
Parties, I mean, I know that they are smeared in the media as millions of
racists—which we know, this is what they do to us, they call us bigots,
racists, islamophobes and so on and so forth. But how do you see it playing out
in America? Because he’s very Islamophilic. You see this.

Bat Ye’or: Yes, of course, he said it. He said change, he
wanted change, in policy.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: And he wanted to engage the Muslim world. So he
wants to go with them, toward them, to please them.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: So it is clear that his policy will be on this
space. So what I see it is that, of course with globalization, which is the
engagement with the Muslim world, which is a process within the globalization.
So this, of course, will lead America to relinquish some of its sovereignty. It
is for the Americans to decide where they want to go. What they want to keep.
How they will manage within globalization. It is very complicated program.
Because we’re going to a new world now, especially with the exchange, with the
immigration movements.

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: With also the communication, the facilities of

Geller: Right.

Bat Ye’or: So to what are we going? We are losing the past.
The secure past. And we have to build the future. But with what and how? And it
is a very destructured world that we have now, at least In the West—because I
don’t think China has changed. The Muslim world, on the contrary, is building

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: This is why I called it the conflict. Because the
Muslim world is getting a very strong organization, which is the Organization
of the Islamic Conference, which has many instruments, internal instruments,
and which — it has its own code of human rights according to Sharia, its own
international tribunal, according to Sharia also, and several other bodies. And
as it has said in several of its statements, the OIC wants to build the
universal ummah. This is the Muslim —

Geller: Worldwide community.

Bat Ye’or: Worldwide, yes. And rooting it in the Koran and
the Sunnah. So it is not like us, which are destructured. We don’t know where
is our identity, we are full of guilt because of this, because of that. They
have a very strong position, according to their texts. They want to create a
Western Islam which is linked to the universal ummah, and which will be
organized and coordinate through Muslim schools, Muslim teaching, and Muslim

Geller:  And the
media, also?

Bat Ye’or: Muslim media. All that coordinated throughout the
Western world. So we shall see this emergence of a Western Islam which will be
very strongly rooted in its original values, the Koran and the Sunnah, within a
Western world which is corroding, which is

Geller: Decaying.

Bat Ye’or: Decaying. And which doesn’t even reproduce

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: The youth don’t get married, don’t have children.
So, demographically we don’t have a future if we don’t reproduce ourselves.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: Apart from the problem that we have, the cultural
problems and the problem of own identity. 

Geller: So this is — in addition to the books which I’m
going to list on the website, her books, which are seminal works — this is
what you cover in your latest book on The Universal Caliphate, is this what you

Bat Ye’or: Yes, yes. Exactly that. What I am discussing also
is that with globalization, the democratic process of government of each
country are replaced by transnational networks. Like in Europe, the Anna Lind
Foundation. On a worldwide scale, the Alliance of Civilizations. The Alliance
of Civilizations is a gigantic network that collaborates with several countries
on different levels which are political, historical, military, religious — on
all levels — and which impact on the governments of the countries through
these networks. So, in fact, democratic processes are replaced now by the work
of transnational networks, like, for instance, the UN. The UN is a gigantic

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: If the UN gives a ruling, well, it supersedes the
rules, the laws, of the country, of different countries. And it has to be
accepted. It has to be followed up, you see. So we are now—I don’t know about
America, but in Europe—we are now determined, our policy is determined, and is
obeyed, to networks. Networks are by essence not individuals.  There are lots of people who are
working in networks.

Geller: Right. It’s collective.

Bat Ye’or: It’s collective. So, you don’t know, they are
opaque. You don’t know to whom, if you are not happy of something, you cannot
go to a person and complain. So it is an inhuman, anonymous organization,
Kafkaesque organization, which is going to rule the world. And all this because
of the OIC organization and its friends. All these networks are strongly
influenced by the OIC. So the OIC is, in fact, getting more and more power into
these networks that control our life. 

Geller: But the idea of America, probably the most noble
experiment in human history, the most moral government, it was based on
individual rights. This is in our DNA. I mean, no matter how different we may
all be, the basic idea of individual rights—the opposite of collectivism, the
opposite of statism—I mean, Americans are going to feel this. And you see, Americans
are not—while they may have been, because everything was so good and so
easy—Americans are not passive. I don’t know that you’ll be able to just snatch
away this idea that defines us. I mean, I don’t know if America will save the
world, Bat. I don’t know. But I don’t know that they’ll go quietly. Do you
think they’ll go quietly?

Bat Ye’or: I hope they will not, because this will mean —
because America is a very great country. It is really a pillar of Western
civilization. It has got the best of it. Also, it has many dark aspects, in its
own history, but at least it recognized it, and this is very important. Because
every nation, every people, every individual have that aspect in their
personality and in their history. What is important is to recognize it.

Geller: Right.

Bat Ye’or: And to change it. 

Geller: This is fundamentally what’s wrong in Islam.  That you cannot – no candor.

Bat Ye’or: That you cannot criticize. So America is a great
nation. It has a tremendous potentiality, it has given a lot to the world. And,
of course, if America is going to follow the direction that Europe has taken — 

Geller:  And it
seems to.

Bat Ye’or: Yes. Well, it will be very, very serious for our
civilization, our principles, our values. And it will be a collapse of an
enormous magnitude. But, I must say that now in Europe there is a movement of—I
wouldn’t say a revolt, but a resistance movement against that. So there is some
resistance. It doesn’t mean that it will succeed.


Bat Ye’or: Because it is very difficult to go against what
has been done for so many decades, and also to organize a political body that
will know how to deal with those problems that are very  complex.

Geller: Yeah.

Bat Ye’or: On the level of a continent. Because it is not in
one country, it is in the whole of Europe. So it is on the level of the
continent. But this has to be done if Europe, what Europe represents and the
West represents, want to survive. 
Otherwise it will not survive. 

Geller: Will not survive. So, the first thing, you know,
after 9/11, when I started this journey, because before 9/11 I was cognizant of
really nothing, I came to see you at Columbia. Yeah. And I was so blown away by
what your remarks had revealed, I had come up to you and I said, What do I do,
or What should I do? And you said to me, First, learn everything. It was the
best advice I ever got. And I guess that’s what people have to do. First they
really must learn everything, and not go to the usual resources that they go to
like the media, because the culture has been completely corrupted. 

Bat Ye’or: Yes, it has been corrupted and subverted.

Geller: Yes. 

Bat Ye’or: By the Islamic version of history, which is not
ours, our version.

Geller: But we’re accepting it.

Bat Ye’or: Yes, because our authority, our universities, are
enforcing it.

Geller: Yes.

Bat Ye’or: You see, in Islam you say the human rights, the declaration
of Islam says that the search for knowledge is permitted as long as it is done
according to Sharia. So, according to Sharia, it means you cannot criticize the
Koran, you cannot criticize Islamic history, you cannot criticize anything,
really, religious. It is a religious version of history. It is not compatible
with our version of history, which is based on critique –

Geller: And analysis.

Bat Ye’or: And analysis and examination of facts.

Geller: Yeah. No, there’s no facts.

Bat Ye’or: No. No. If you have to say that everything is
perfect in Islam,  so you don’t
really have to – then the historical demonstration must be according to this
conclusion, that everything is perfect in Islam. So already you have the
demonstration, the result. 

Geller: Any idea when your book is going to be out?

Bat Ye’or: Well, it will be out in French in October.

Geller: Okay.

Bat Ye’or: And in America, I am looking for — the
translation is not finished yet, I have to work a little bit on it.

Geller: So hopefully you’ll come back and we’ll talk again
when it’s out in English?

Bat Ye’or: I hope so.

Geller: You want it to be a best seller.

Bat Ye’or: Thank you.

Geller: Bat Ye’or, Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs. Thank you
very much.

Bat Ye’or: Thank you very much. Thank you.

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