Ventilators are killing virus patients

41

“medical ventilation can worsen lung injury — so we have to be careful how we use it.”

For weeks, the media and the left yelped and caterwauled for ventilators. Needless to say, the shortage never happened. Worse, ventilators can do more harm than good. But the media continues to promote ventilators while attacking and inciting fear about hydroxychloroquine, zithromax and zinc.

From doctors on scene in Florida: “ER docs are finding that ‘low sat’ “happy hypoxics” comfortably walking around did well with high flow nasal cannulas, but because there’s a protocol to intubate a low sat, they were tubing high numbers and sending them into cytokine storm, and this is unique to Covid19 in that is not the thing to do unless the patient becomes in true respiratory distress. So it’s cannulas needed more than vents and the “experts” have to catch up.

And when patients go to ICU they try to talk them into hospice right away.”

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It’s a culture of death.

Some doctors moving away from ventilators for virus patients

By Mike Stobbe, AP,

NEW YORK (AP) — As health officials around the world push to get more ventilators to treat coronavirus patients, some doctors are moving away from using the breathing machines when they can.

The reason: Some hospitals have reported unusually high death rates for coronavirus patients on ventilators, and some doctors worry that the machines could be harming certain patients.

The evolving treatments highlight the fact that doctors are still learning the best way to manage a virus that emerged only months ago. They are relying on anecdotal, real-time data amid a crush of patients and shortages of basic supplies.

Mechanical ventilators push oxygen into patients whose lungs are failing. Using the machines involves sedating a patient and sticking a tube into the throat. Deaths in such sick patients are common, no matter the reason they need the breathing help.

Generally speaking, 40% to 50% of patients with severe respiratory distress die while on ventilators, experts say. But 80% or more of coronavirus patients placed on the machines in New York City have died, state and city officials say.

Higher-than-normal death rates also have been reported elsewhere in the U.S., said Dr. Albert Rizzo, the American Lung Association’s chief medical officer.

Similar reports have emerged from China and the United Kingdom. One U.K. report put the figure at 66%. A very small study in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the disease first emerged, said 86% died.

The reason is not clear. It may have to do with what kind of shape the patients were in before they were infected. Or it could be related to how sick they had become by the time they were put on the machines, some experts said.

But some health professionals have wondered whether ventilators might actually make matters worse in certain patients, perhaps by igniting or worsening a harmful immune system reaction.

That’s speculation. But experts do say ventilators can be damaging to a patient over time, as high-pressure oxygen is forced into the tiny air sacs in a patient’s lungs.

“We know that mechanical ventilation is not benign,” said Dr. Eddy Fan, an expert on respiratory treatment at Toronto General Hospital. “One of the most important findings in the last few decades is that medical ventilation can worsen lung injury — so we have to be careful how we use it.”

The dangers can be eased by limiting the amount of pressure and the size of breaths delivered by the machine, Fan said.

But some doctors say they’re trying to keep patients off ventilators as long as possible, and turning to other techniques instead.

Only a few weeks ago in New York City, coronavirus patients who came in quite sick were routinely placed on ventilators to keep them breathing, said Dr. Joseph Habboushe, an emergency medicine doctor who works in Manhattan hospitals.

But increasingly, physicians are trying other measures first. One is having patients lie in different positions — including on their stomachs — to allow different parts of the lung to aerate better. Another is giving patients more oxygen through nose tubes or other devices. Some doctors are experimenting with adding nitric oxide to the mix, to help improve blood flow and oxygen to the least damaged parts of the lungs.

“If we’re able to make them better without intubating them, they are more likely to have a better outcome — we think,” Habboushe said.

He said those decisions are separate from worries that there are not enough ventilators available. But that is a concern as well, Habboushe added.

There are widespread reports that coronavirus patients tend to be on ventilators much longer than other kinds of patients, said Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious diseases expert at Vanderbilt University.

Experts say that patients with bacterial pneumonia, for example, may be on a ventilator for no more than a day or two. But it’s been common for coronavirus patients to have been on a ventilator “seven days, 10 days, 15 days, and they’re passing away,” said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, when asked about ventilator death rates during a news briefing on Wednesday.

That’s one reason for worries that ventilators could grow in short supply. Experts worry that as cases mount, doctors will be forced to make terrible decisions about who lives and who dies because they won’t have enough machines for every patient who needs one.

New York State Health Commissioner Dr. Howard Zucker said Wednesday that officials are looking into other possible therapies that can be given earlier, but added “that’s all experimental.”

The new virus is a member of the coronavirus family that can cause colds as well as more serious illnesses. Health officials say it spreads mainly from droplets when an infected person coughs or sneezes. There is no proven drug treatment or vaccine against it.
Full Coverage: Virus Outbreak

Experts think most people who are infected suffer nothing worse than unpleasant but mild illnesses that may include fever and coughing.

But roughly 20% — many of them older adults or people weakened by chronic conditions — can grow much sicker. They can have trouble breathing and suffer chest pain. Their lungs can become inflamed, causing a dangerous condition called acute respiratory distress syndrome. An estimated 3% to 4% may need ventilators.

“The ventilator is not therapeutic. It’s a supportive measure while we wait for the patient’s body to recover,” said Dr. Roger Alvarez, a lung specialist with the University of Miami Health System in Florida, who is a leader in the effort to use nitric oxide to keep patients off ventilators for as long as possible.

Zachary Shemtob said he was “absolutely terrified” when he was told his 44-year-old husband, David, needed to be put on a ventilator at NYU Langone last month after becoming infected with the virus.

“Needing to be ventilated might mean never getting off the ventilator,” he said.

Shemtob said the hospital did not give any percentages on survival, but he got the impression it was essentially a coin flip. He looked up the rates only after his husband was breathing on his own six days later.

“A coin flip was generous it seems,” he said.

But Shemtob noted cases vary. His husband is relatively young.

“David is living proof that they can really save lives, and how incredibly important they are,” Shemtob said.

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DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago

Translations from doctor-speak:
“ER docs are finding that ‘low sat’ “happy hypoxics” comfortably walking around did well with high flow nasal cannulas, but because there’s a protocol to intubate a low sat, they were tubing high numbers and sending them into cytokine storm, and this is unique to Covid19 in that is not the thing to do unless the patient becomes in true respiratory distress. So it’s cannulas needed more than vents and the “experts” have to catch up. And when patients go to ICU they try to talk them into hospice right away.”

Translates into this:
Emergency Room doctors who treat Covid-19 patients typically measure the amount of oxygen in the blood stream, because lung problems often produce low blood oxygen saturation [low sat]. Some ambulatory Covid-19 patients seem comfortable with low oxygen saturation levels, and many doctors were just providing supplemental oxygen through small tubes that pass partly into the nose [cannulas]. But the ‘best practices’ treatment guidelines recommend making the patient unconscious, and then pushing a plastic tube into the throat, to get a machine [ventilator] to do the breathing for the patient. Pressure levels can be set to get normal oxygen blood levels. But this caused sudden and excessive lung inflammation, that rapidly got worse on its own [cytokine storm]. Only Covid-19 patients have this problem, so the ‘best practices’ guidelines need to be changed, to delay the use of ventilators, and stick with the small oxygen tubes.

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago

Translations from doctor-speak:
“ER docs are finding that ‘low sat’ “happy hypoxics” comfortably walking around did well with high flow nasal cannulas, but because there’s a protocol to intubate a low sat, they were tubing high numbers and sending them into cytokine storm, and this is unique to Covid19 in that is not the thing to do unless the patient becomes in true respiratory distress. So it’s cannulas needed more than vents and the “experts” have to catch up. And when patients go to ICU they try to talk them into hospice right away.”

Translates into this:
Emergency Room doctors who treat Covid-19 patients typically measure the amount of oxygen in the blood stream, because lung problems often produce low blood oxygen saturation [low sat]. Some ambulatory Covid-19 patients seem comfortable with low oxygen saturation levels, and many doctors were just providing supplemental oxygen through small tubes that pass partly into the nose [cannulas]. But the ‘best practices’ treatment guidelines recommend making the patient unconscious, and then pushing a plastic tube into the throat, to get a machine [ventilator] to do the breathing for the patient. Pressure levels can be set to get normal oxygen blood levels. But this caused sudden and excessive lung inflammation, that rapidly got worse on its own [cytokine storm]. Only Covid-19 patients have this problem, so the ‘best practices’ guidelines need to be changed, to delay the use of ventilators, and stick with the small oxygen tubes.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

The virus is obviously colonizing in the respirators and continuously bombarding the patient with extra viral particles to fight off with their immune system.

I suspected this from the beginning.

It’s an obvious conclusion. Doctors aren’t microbiologists.

The lack of ultraviolet radiation in hepa filters in the air circulation in hospitals is a factor as the air around these patients is constantly replenished with viral particles.

They can’t get better without a certain amount of ultraviolet radiation. This is why placing patients in tents outside dramatically reduced the death rates of Spanish flu patients.

Open the dang windows in every hospital at the very least!

Mr. Mojo Risin'
Mr. Mojo Risin'
3 years ago

You have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about. You are the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

I’m debating reporting your abusive comment but hopefully you can comprehend this high school level explanation.
How covid-19 colonizes on intubation equipment
First of all, this is not the result of a microbiology experiment with Covid 19.

These are general things that all microbiologists know or should know specific to intubation.

Inside the lungs are very delicate tissues. We exchange carbon dioxide with oxygen through very special membranes in tiny sacs in our lungs we call alveoli.

These membranes are not unlike the membranes in the kidneys. Particles in our blood small enough to pass through these tiny holes will escape with carbon dioxide and other gases from our bloodstream.

Sugar particles, dead blood cells that have degraded to smaller particles or have broken into tiny particles may also escape through these membranes and stick to the tubing.

There are tons of other particles in our bloodstream including respirated wastes from our cells which provide ideal circumstances for “glue” that sticks viruses to the tubing.

Like skin cells, we lose lung tissue cells when we intubate individuals. This irritation to the lungs, basically scraping very sensitive tissue as it slides into place, will weaken the immune system in that now bruised and damaged lung area.

Living cells may slough off and stick to the tubing where viral particles enter and reproduce without a bloodstream attacking it with antibodies as these temporary living cells now provide ideal, unchecked breeding grounds for viruses.

It is possible if the patient moves even slightly that new injuries by the tubing occurs repeatedly, again, damaging living lung tissue and making it vulnerable to infection as well as providing more living cells without a blood supply to colonize the virus.

The irritation produces the inflammation for certain but so does the fact that immunity to damaged lung tissue is compromised, causing a stronger immune response as well as all the usual healing properties which includes cushioning to damaged tissue that all of these types of injuries produce.

A good comparison is wearing I’ll fitting shoes where the heel is constantly rubbed raw.

We’re looking at how difficult it is to kill a virus with living cells unconnected to a blood supply that would otherwise prevent the virus from growing out of control.

Between the repeated irritation and the virus growing exponentially unchecked, we develop a viral load in the lungs which cannot be overcome by immune system efforts.

How significant a person’s inflammation response is to injuries may be a factor, increasing pressure on the intubation equipment, basically reinjuring the already damaged tissues as the swelling presses against the tubing, and the cycle continues until the lungs can no longer fight the infection.

These are guesses based on science.

I would really discourage any use of intubation. The viral load in the patient’s air quality is most likely the reason they’re not improving.

Diluting the number of viral particles should improve the patient’s ability to fight the virus inside their bodies.

Killing them with ultraviolet light and radiation will further dilute the viral particles in the air.

The dead viruses suspended in the air may act like a vaccine to everyone breathing them in, as well.

These are theories based on actual scientific knowledge, not the result of testing these suggestions. Our teams of virologists need to assess tubing and ventilation equipment the moment it’s being removed from a patient to get a good idea of what’s growing and going on conclusively.

Mr. Mojo Risin'
Mr. Mojo Risin'
3 years ago

There are many things wrong about your post, and I’m not going to take the time to go through all of it, so I’m just going to point out the first mistake. You said “covid-19 colonizes on intubation equipment.” Viruses do not form colonies, bacteria do. I could go on and on.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

EVERYTHING colonizes.

You’ve used petri dishes.

You give a pathogen anything they can grow on, they set up shop and reproduce.

Saying a virus doesn’t colonize is IDIOTIC BEYOND BELIEF. What do you think it’s doing inside the bodies of the sick?!

Idiots responding to my posts need to shut up. They’re hurting every damn person on the planet with their idiotic lack of ability to reason.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago

Little mohoe is a PRETEND engineer, living in Make-Believe Land.
Now, mohoe is a microbiologist. Of course, when one is a PRETEND engineer, making the switch to a PRETEND microbiologist is a simple step.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

The difference between you and I is that I WAS a microbiologist. I was in university at 15 on scholarship for microbiology.

Acing my tests.

Are you a microbiologist? Virologist?

Then shut down the comments from the peanut gallery.

You’re a know-nothing make believe engineer whose ability to reason is so obviously damaged you didn’t even take your engineering exam to certify yourself despite saying you’d pass it with flying colors.

I’m a math and physics genius.

That’s been certified.

You want to talk about how idiotic you sound to a math and physics genius when it comes to your engineering perspectives on this post because you definitely don’t want to go there.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago

If I am not mistaken, you delivered this comment to the wrong individual.
I have never stated that I would pass a Professional Engineer exam “with flying colors”. Nor, have I set myself forth as having anything to do with microbiology.

Mr. Mojo Risin'
Mr. Mojo Risin'
3 years ago

Viruses culture, they don’t colonize. Your lack of knowledge of the rudimentary jargon in this field suggests that you have no clue what you’re talking about, and you should not be taken seriously.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

Right. I disagree with the word “culture”.

A virus replicates by sticking it’s back end into a living cell and injecting it’s DNA into the cell where it replicates many times over similar to a single insect, creating massive numbers of “offspring”.

If you want to call that “culturing”, fine.

I say, given the massive numbers of virus organisms that a single human cell releases after that a “colony”.

I say “colonize” because it’s etimologically accurate.

I could bloody care less the wording the medical establishment uses.

The words we use give us a picture and perception of what’s happening.

Differentiating bacterial reproduction from viral reproduction by giving their “groups” different names is RIDICULOUS.

It’s a colony.

I’d reverse the names, if anything, because a single bacterial cell doesn’t divide into millions or thousands or even hundreds of new cells at once like some types of viruses do.

“Colonies” of viruses happen from a single event.

You use your language, I’ll use mine.

A bacterial cell splits in half to replicate.

I hardly picture a “colony” as a result.

I’m correcting the language used by medical professionals.

There are two types of people. People that follow and people that lead.

I’d be one of those scientists that refused to blood-let to treat illnesses if I’d been born in that time period.

Because I’d be declaring it rightly insane and refusing to pass on the misconception.

You can see it in your “follower” way.

I don’t.

I won’t.

Viruses colonize.

Bacteria also colonize.

But a virus is more colonizing in nature than bacteria because they replicate en masse faster than bacteria ever do.

cylde
cylde
3 years ago

He loves playing wise man on the internet, where opinions are like anal orifices, every body has one.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago
Reply to  cylde

Thanks, Clyde.

Hopefully the Israeli meds work for everyone so we can all put this situation behind us and go back to normal.

cylde
cylde
3 years ago

That dissertation should shut the fool up, on this thread anyway.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago

The Pretend engineer returns from Make-Believe Land. Referencing the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger Effect … Hey, I couldn’t pass my PE exams. I am NOT licensed. To call myself an “engineer” in many states is illegal … But, I AM an engineer.
TOO funny, little one.

Mr. Mojo Risin'
Mr. Mojo Risin'
3 years ago

1. I never took the FE exam. I could easily pass it if I did.
2. It’s a certification, not a license.
3. Calling yourself an engineer without a PE certificate is not illegal in any state. You just made that up.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago

The reason that you didn’t sit for you PE is that you KNEW that you would fail. FAIL MISERABLY.
You are NOT an engineer.
Holding yourself out as an engineer, without a PE designation, in the state of Ohio, is definitely illegal.
However, your bald faced lying is to be expected from a PRETEND engineer, living in Make-Believe Land.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

You do realize that saying nasty things and being rude like that is a Hallmark trait of someone with low IQ. All I hear it’s someone who is not a scientist spouting off garbage he knows nothing about and acting like he is a supreme authority on the subject matter.

are you attracted to me? Is that why you feel the incessant need to rip me apart? To keep my attention? Because that’s a possibility. From where I sit you are a narcissist.

In my program, which is a master’s degree program encompassing 8 different subject areas into a program called the science of decision-making, we do not call it culturing. Virus is colonize. They reject the language, as well. We are aware of the language that is used. We are not encouraged to adopt all of it. The word colonize comes to mind when I imagine the physical actions of the viruses. My description is scientifically accurate even if it is not so in your mind. You should learn to lead more instead of follow. I want you to watch some videos of viruses replicating before the end of the day. If you want to call that culturing, you go ahead. That makes no sense to me at all. Viruses colonize in the same way as other hunter-gatherer groups do on our fine Earth. Are they not colonizing if they are hunter-gatherers?. Are they not a group that originated from a single Source? Offspring related to one another at least distantly?

Anthropologically all micro-organisms colonize. Bite me.

Mr. Mojo Risin'
Mr. Mojo Risin'
3 years ago

“You do realize that saying nasty things and being rude like that is a Hallmark trait of someone with low IQ. All I hear it’s someone who is not a scientist spouting off garbage he knows nothing about and acting like he is a supreme authority on the subject matter.”

You are literally accusing me of something you did. I never used any ad hominem attacks against you. You however called me an “idiot.” What does that say about your IQ? Also I actually am a scientist, although not in this field. I have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering. So no, I don’t have any authority in this field, but based on your posts, it doesn’t seem like you do either.

Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
Tamara Hussey-Mecklenburg
3 years ago

I want to ask you, if it’s not colonizing, why are British people called colonizers? They set up shop somewhere and make a bunch of people and then they move on and they set up shop somewhere else and make a bunch of people, and they keep doing that. Of course viruses can’t stay in the cell they’ve just used for replication because they’ve destroyed the land they landed upon. Bacteria destroy the land in a different way. They consume living cells but they stay in one area as much as they can. Like British colonizers, they to move around and set up new colonies.

are you telling me that when they move and set up a new colony they are not colonizers? Just because there’s migration involved? Because that is not how we use the term colonizing. I see viruses and bacteria as colonizers. Just because they are not formally classified that way does not mean that they are accurate classifications. When you compare the activity of a microorganism or groups of microorganisms to human or animal behaviours, you got an idea of what colonizing means microscopically. They are all colonizing. It doesn’t matter if they are nomadic. It doesn’t matter if they leave the land completely destroyed before they move on. They continue to colonize, then they migrate and colonize again.

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago

Yes, methods to do this are called “Patient Level Data”, or ‘Electronic Medical Records’, and many places are already doing it. Instead of a paper file on each patient, the data goes directly from the doctor into a computer. That creates a huge database on all patients within a state, or county, or hospital, and those data can be analyzed for the things you mentioned.

I would love to see how many patients were diagnosed with Covid-19 in specific localities, and what treatment they got. Did they get Hydroxychloroquine, or what? The places that do electronic patient records could find out in a short time. We will beat this epidemic with computers.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago
Reply to  DemocracyRules

Most physicians, under the age of fifty today. are “decision tree” docs. They wouldn’t know how to practice medicine if you held a gun to their head. They follow the “if-then” of a decision tree and are helpless without it. Hayull, a good automobile technician can read a decision tree better than most physicians.

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago

Hey Ach, well if you don’t like doctors, then say so! Oh Wait, you just did…

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago
Reply to  DemocracyRules

That statement has nothing to do with disliking physicians. It was simply a statement of fact. How many people have you heard complaining that their “doctor” refused to issue them a prescription for an antibiotic? Sixty years ago, it was standard procedure to take a blood sample. They used some type of triangular shaped blade, pricked a finger or thumb and would place it under a microscope. If it was bacterial … You received a shot or a prescription for an antibiotic.
When one attempts to explain this to some “doctor” today, they have NO idea of what you’re referencing.
If they cannot find an “if-then” answer on their little decision tree screen …..
And, don’t get me started on a gip (eeegip) doctor that I threatened to send back to Egypt in a body bag. Those forkin’ disgusting animals should be kept FAR away from the elderly.

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago

For 300,000 years of the human species, life expectancy was about 37. And until 1800, USA life expectancy was still about 37. Then the industrial and scientific revolutions began, eventually led by the USA. Today, USA life expectancy is about 80. That would never have occurred without scientific medicine. Now if you still want to bad mouth doctors, I won’t be offended. You seem to like doing it.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago
Reply to  DemocracyRules

When did statements of truth become “bad mouthing”?

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago

Well it didn’t sound like praise….

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago
Reply to  DemocracyRules

If telling the truth praised them, I’d be praising them. Truthful statements are truthful statements. Whether they be praising or damning.

cylde
cylde
3 years ago
Reply to  DemocracyRules

All muslims are not terrorists “yet”. All doctors are not good doctors.

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago
Reply to  cylde

Yes, true. But humans can make progress even when there are bad people in our midst.

santashandler
santashandler
3 years ago

Scary but true!

cylde
cylde
3 years ago
Reply to  DemocracyRules

I believe there is a liberal somewhere in the system blocking that information. i have no evidence other than that they are demonstrably evil.

DemocracyRules
DemocracyRules
3 years ago
Reply to  cylde

It’s possible that no one has actually thought of it yet. Epidemiologists tend to get obsessed with their ‘models’.

Philip
Philip
3 years ago

My sainted mother died last month. I am STILL waiting for a death certificate. Wuflu or not (and I’m curiously awaiting the official verdict), the amount of oxygen she was being given was detrimental to her. She had allergies and we explained that repetitively. Too much oxygen when it isn’t necessary isn’t helpful. The more they forced on her, the worse she functioned, overall.

Achmed Mohandjob
Achmed Mohandjob
3 years ago
Reply to  Philip

I can only offer my condolences on the loss of your mother.

Philip
Philip
3 years ago

You have my sincerest thanks and appreciation Achmed Mohandjob.

Philip
Philip
3 years ago

Damn, sometimes life is just really surreal.

Philip
Philip
3 years ago

They follow official procedure, in theory, because they don’t want to get sued. It’s not science, it’s an art. There are too many bad artists practicing right now. They aren’t concerned about any individual patient. They are concerned about what the insurance will allow them to bill without getting sued. Pay with cash if you want decent healthcare.

TARDRE
TARDRE
3 years ago

There are no experts. We need that established. But by now statistically we should know what works best here in America and it’s a pathetic shame that it’s not being studied or reported.

patd
patd
3 years ago

So will the deaths be changes to medical mistakes from covid19?

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